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Mom Is My Emergency Contact Podcast
Ep. 8 The Porn Narrative and It's Impact on Women Part 1: Special Guest Aaron and Mark from The Warrior & The Wolf Podcast
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Coach Bridget and Coach Lisa, along with their insightful guests Aaron and Mark from The Warrior and The Wolf podcast, reveal how the consumption of adult content could be influencing romantic connections, particularly for single moms stepping back into the dating world. We get a different male perspective from Aaron and Mark. Could it be they are an outlier? Or are more men taking this perspective when it comes to porn.
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The Warrior and The Wolf Podcast Episodes we referenced:
Episode 19-Porn Paradox: The Real Cost of Porn Addiction
Episode 23-Porn Paradox: The Real Cost of Porn Addiction
Sexology Podcast with Dr. Moali
242. EP242-Is Watching Porn Bad? with Diane Gleim, LMFT
Host:
Lisa
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Impact of Porn on Dating Experiences
Speaker 1coach , bridget and I had a discussion about this briefly , and we wanted to bring it up on our podcast so that we can have the open discussion and how women felt about their potential dates viewing porn and what types of discussions were men having about porn , which is where you two come in . So we wanted to discuss how porn impacted , or how it impacts , dating experiences and also , can a woman tell if a man has been using porn a lot ? Bridget and I will be talking a lot about that separately . I think it's an important conversation to have , especially for single moms who are going out into the dating world , because the porn industry has certainly changed since they were married for some women . I mean , I remember my friends telling me oh , did you know that that porn stuff is free ? And I'm like , no , did not know that . So we wanted to bring provide some educational tips and guidance on the whole topic when it comes to dating a man who watches porn as far as a woman watching porn for her own pleasure . That'll be another topic that Bridget and I will be talking about separately , another topic that Bridget and I will be talking about separately . So , with all that being said , I want to mention that I had the opportunity to talk to Dr Nazeen Mawali on my sister podcast , the Elego Podcast .
Speaker 1She has a very successful podcast . There is no topic when it comes to sex that she does not cover , which is probably why she is so successful in the podcasting industry . She is a clinical psychologist that specializes in sex , couples therapy and sex education . She had a podcast episode where she talked about whether or not porn was bad , and it was actually episode 242 . And it's called Is Watching Porn Bad with Diane Gleam , who is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified sex therapist . The therapist on her episode talked about the different types of porn , because when we think about porn , we think about the free website , okay and for the most part it is the type of porn that focuses more on the male gaze , a man's view of sex , not from the woman's perspective .
Speaker 1She also mentions there's also a lot of unknowns when you're watching that type of porn , that type of porn . She discusses how we don't know the type of relationship these actors have with each other or with the person that's doing the recording . We don't know if these individuals are getting the recording . We don't know if these individuals are getting fairly paid . We don't know if these individuals are consenting to the act and if they're doing it on their own accord . So there are a lot of unknowns with watching that type of porn that might create some internal conflict . She mentioned the term ethical porn , which I didn't even know that existed , and ethical porn is where you have to pay , so it's not free . In fact , the money that you pay actually goes towards the actor's salary that are in the videos . There tends to be more body positive videos where it's going to reach a wider range of audiences and , like I said , those individuals are getting paid and it's a known thing and those individuals are doing it willingly , with consent , so without judgment .
Speaker 1She discusses what influences people to have them feel negative towards porn . Besides the unknowns , there is religious influence , the sexual past experiences . Those all influence how you view porn , which makes sense . She also mentions the different platforms of porn . So we often think just the video on that free website or streaming , okay . Well , there's erotica literature , there's pictures , there's drawings , there's photographs . There's even audio erotica , which I said to Bridget did we miss our Colin , and this is a podcast that they do and they're doing . They're reading erotica literature , a book , and then there's the interactive porn where it's live , it's live camming and this person is texting and they're telling them what to do , and all that .
Speaker 1So , when it comes to addiction , she discusses this term , moral incoherence , and this is where people think they have an addiction when they actually do not . She defines moral incoherence as having a moral disapproval of doing something and yet still doing it , which , when you know I shouldn't be doing this , but I'm doing it . It's going to create an internal conflict . So for some , they may feel they have an addiction when they actually do not . So with all that , let's introduce our guests .
Speaker 1I've invited Aaron and Mark , who are the hosts of the Warrior and the Wolf podcast . I had these guys on the Elego podcast discussing vulnerability and how women can create a safe space for the men in their lives . That episode will be in the show notes . They also talked about very personal stories and how these experiences life experiences have impacted their lives . We are specifically bringing them into the podcast because they have a very different perspective about porn than most men and I want women to hear that this type of perspective exists , because I think we often hear the more common perspective that men have with porn . So welcome , erin and Mark .
Speaker 3Thanks for having us back on . What an introduction . Man , Holy smokes , you did your research .
Speaker 1Oh , yes , I did .
Speaker 3And I'd kind of like a little more info as to why you think you and Bridget might have missed your calling . I'm interested in that comment .
Speaker 1That's another episode , mark . It came up at a meeting . So you know , as I stated , you know you guys take it on another level and I want women to hear this level of thinking and perspective . So , but before I go into that , I want Bridget again to introduce herself to the listeners . For those who have not listened to the first couple of episodes , bridget , would you like to introduce yourself ?
Speaker 2Yes , I am Bridget , lovingly known as Coach Bridget , and I am a high-conflict custody specialist , so I am known to be kicking ass and helping women find their inner badass and empowering them through the family court system as they are working to advocate for themselves and for their kiddos .
Speaker 1Yes , and if you don't know by now , my name is Lisa , or maybe sometimes Coach Lisa , where I am a certified running coach , certified life coach , former therapist , where I empower women through fitness , health and everything in between . And , as I mentioned , we have the sister podcast , ella Go , where it talks a lot more about health and empowerment for women . But here on the Mom is my Emergency Contact podcast . We are empowering single moms . So , without further ado , you guys had an episode you actually had two episodes on your podcast in regards to porn , which Bridget and I intently listened to .
Speaker 3Oh , we did .
Speaker 1Good Took notes and we wanted to ask you why did you decide to have this discussion the first time and why do it the second time ?
Speaker 4I actually think it was my idea to bring it up In the work that Mark and I do . I would say this is one of the biggest aspects of what we see men dealing with .
Speaker 4I mean , mark , you can correct me if I'm wrong , but it comes up I would say it comes up 80 to 90% of the time in issues and , like you said , it's not something that's talked about , or at least it's not talked about in a way that we believe that need to be talked about . So we did the episode and then had a massive response from it . Ironically , most of the response was from women . So you know , we decided , you know we did . There was a lot of stuff we didn't touch on in the first episode . I was like , hey , let's , let's put ourselves through this grinder again . So yeah .
Speaker 3So , I mean to piggyback on what Aaron said . Ladies , for us it was one of those deals where and you've listened to those episodes and thank you very much for doing so Um , we're talking about a multi billion dollar industry .
The Impact of the Porn Industry
Speaker 3A multi billion dollar industry and nobody's talking about pornography . Well , how are they making that kind of money ? So the reality of it is , we just kind of felt it's clearly having some sort of impact somewhere , like the consumption is real , right , so it's impacted our lives and the men that we love on , and so we decided that we would tackle it , and to say that it's uncomfortable is probably understating it .
Speaker 4But the reality of it is like I said , as we discussed the fact that it's a multibillion dollar industry , aaron pointed out it makes more money annually than the MLB , nhl , nba and NFL combined perspective as of 2022 , the raw data states that globally , the porn industry profit is near 100 billion 100 billion globally , all those sports networks that he talked about is roughly right around 35 to 40 billion .
Speaker 3So why , as we talked about the the topic , why is no one talking about it ?
Speaker 1okay , uh , coach bridget wow , um , mind blown .
Speaker 2First of all because every person I've ever dated is obsessed with sports , but also also the porn topic ends up coming out at some point , right ? I , I do have to say I have noticed that there can be just like anything , anything can be addictive , right , but there's obviously something that's being pushed if the numbers are that high and these individuals are that lucrative .
Speaker 4The numbers don't lie . To throw you more numbers out there it's predicted to globally , by the end of 2024 , to hit 124 billion . So it's not stopping .
Speaker 3Well , and Coach Bridget , to your point . I mean , let's be honest , the addiction piece is why it's making what it's making . And in our episodes we talked a little bit about the fact well , what are you addicted to , like , what is it that keeps you coming back ? And I think that a lot of times and it is the case for a lot of folks I judge that they're looking for that physical release , which is completely understood . But I think the addiction comes in when you're looking for something more . What's the underlying cause that continues to have you consuming that content ? There's something there , because the physical release is not dependent upon the content . The physical release can happen elsewhere , right ?
Speaker 3So I judge that the addiction comes in somewhere else . What is it you're looking for ? Is it a connection ? Did something happen in your story where , oh , I have control in this scene , right , or I have ? There's something that you're getting from consuming that content . And so , to take a deeper look at it , I judge that's where a majority of the addictions come from is the fact that you're getting something from that content that you're not getting somewhere else ?
Speaker 2And just to jump off of that for a second you mentioned in your episode you referred to Ted Bundy . Yeah , that is the cycle of addiction . It's never enough , and then the addict has to keep going back for more and more , and it's it's really like this false sense of dopamine , similar to like I don't know my child playing video games . Right , I mean very different things , but You're a hundred percent spot on .
Speaker 4And if you look at the studies and and I brought up the Ted Bundy thing because it is , it is and you know , like Mark talks about , what has you going to that in the first place ?
Speaker 4Like anything , you know people that get hooked on amphetamines for pain , people that get hooked , you know , start drinking to numb something , like you go to that for something specific , whatever it is . You're missing in your life the connection , the relationship , the false sense of connection through pornography . But then it does something in your brain , the same as most drugs , same as alcohol , and you just start needing more of it and there's nothing else that can satisfy . And that's where the whole Ted Bundy thing and that's a worst case , extreme scenario . But the reality is , especially when it comes to things like sex and pornography , your brain gets desensitized with it and sometimes it doesn't stop , it doesn't do anything for you . After a while those pictures and those videos don't give you that dopamine hit , don't give you that rush . So you've got to move . Something more extreme and then more extreme and then all of a sudden it spirals out of control .
Speaker 1Okay , well , let me uh , thank you . Thank you , coach Bridget , Thank you everyone . Um , let me ask you this , cause you said that , um , that when you did the first episode , we had a lot of feedback . Well , first of all , you did the episode because it came up . When you say it came up , what do you mean by that ? It came up in what way ?
Speaker 3So , as Aaron alluded to , on the men's weekends that we now staff and we are a part of , a lot of men will come in the weekend . Yeah , you know I struggle with porn and yeah , I'm just I'm watching porn .
Speaker 3There's a sense of shame that comes with how people generally view pornography . Men are like , yeah , and you alluded to it , lisa , when you , when , when you intro the show , um , that's just , people are going to it and maybe I shouldn't . There's some , there's a shame to it , I should hide behind it . You know , society has said that sex is bad and here I am chasing it , what have you ? But for us , the men are coming on into this work and they're like man , I'm having a hard time . I just keep going back to point and I don't want to , don't want to , and I get it . It's understood . Well , what do you want ? If that's not what you want , what do you want ? And that's why I say the addiction is often rooted .
Speaker 3It's not so much the physical release that a lot of the folks that we're talking to are looking for . There's something that's lacking and they're not willing to go either inside themselves to find where that affirmation should be coming , or where they really want to get it , or with their partner saying , hey , I'm finding that I really , really like this part of the sexual act . Can you meet me in that space ? Because again , you alluded to the religion part , at least for me , growing up religion real quick , there were a lot of things I wasn't allowed to talk about growing up God , politics and sex . Those were the three things I wasn't allowed to talk about , right ? So we find that with a lot of men in the work that we do , they're just like I don't want to do this , I don't want to do this . Well , what about you ? Do you want to change in that space ?
Speaker 1Okay , it's funny . You said that because Bridget and I were talking about this and I said my mom gave me a book . We're a very Catholic family we didn't talk about it . She's like here's a book at the library , honey , you know , read it . And she never said call me with questions .
Speaker 3She just said , read it . I'm like well , I mean , it's one of those scenarios sorry to cut you off here , but no , you're good it's one of those scenarios , like you know , and I haven't dated in a very long time . I've I've been married 27 years , so I don't know , I don't know too much about the dating side of it , right , but like , oh , what do you like ? Oh , I like walks on the beach and blah , blah , blah , and at some point you know what I mean . At some point it's like well , you know , physically I'm into this and I think that's a big conversation . But those are tough conversations for folks like me who grew up thinking you don't ever talk about sex . Meanwhile , $124 billion Well , somebody's talking about sex , why not me ? So rather than address it with Jen , who's my wife , it's easier just to go and watch it , right ? Oh , I have shame in asking Jen that I want this . There's shame in that . So I'll just go over here . So that's what I'm hiding , right ?
Speaker 4Aaron , what were you gonna say ?
Speaker 4dude sexual type things at a very young age . So pornography was introduced to me at nine , 10 years old . So I didn't understand what , why I needed to partake in that till I was , till I was older , and by that time I , you know , I want , I don't . I don't say it was too late , but it was . You know , it had the hooks in me , and so I totally , I absolutely agree with what Mark said about like , well , what do you want ? What do you want to change ?
Speaker 4I guess where I take it a step further is when we look at other addicts , we look at somebody who's hooked on whatever alcohol , whatever kind of drug . Most of those hardcore drugs are illegal . We do things to eliminate them . We have stuff like that , but with pornography it's just like eh , you do that in your own house , in your own bedroom , whatever you do is your business . We're not going to talk about it Again . $100 billion across the globe , and this is probably on a little rabbit trail of pornography . But there's certain websites now that have that . States are trying to fight with loopholes , because there's places and we talked about this in our episode where you can , if certain faces are blurred out , there's no age verification , there's no location verification there's , they don't like anti-trafficking stuff goes right out the window . So for me it's like yeah , it's like , well , what do you want ? But in the same sense , like how do we remove this ? Like that's where I'm at , like if it's a danger to , in my mind , a danger to children and women like .
Speaker 1What is being done to curb that ? So let me just say one thing . One question , one more question , and I'm going to go to Coach Bridget , the other question I had , and thank you for that answer , both of you . The other question I had was you then said the feedback from the females . The women I'd like to know what exactly ? What was their feedback ?
Speaker 4I mean , I got some feedback and I will keep their names anonymous , but they talked about how it made them feel Like they knew that their partner , their spouse , their boyfriend was partaking in this , and how it made them feel like they had to live up to that right . So you take your average . I mean , what pornography teaches people about relationships is nothing's off limits . Nobody ever says no . Nobody's ever got a headache . The kids were never a bunch of little a-holes .
Speaker 4It's not real life , but that's what we're being wired to see and that's what you're being , and I was thinking about this actually before this episode , I don't remember if you're going to date myself a little bit , but the old the show Friends , and I don't remember the episode when they get the free porn and they can't turn it off , right , it's funny , but one of the lines they said is like I ordered pizza and she brought the pizza to the door and didn't ask me to have sex with her .
Speaker 4Yes , and while it's a a joke , it's foreshadowing , because that that is what's the rewiring , because it is a fan . You know , we love , we love like fantasy stuff in our culture sci-fi stuff , star wars , marvel , avengers , all that stuff but none of that's attainable . Pornography isn't a fantasy that's attainable , right , or at least in our mind . And I think that's where the women that I was talking to and had feedback . It's like I feel like I got to live up to these expectations . I feel like I got to live up to these airbrushed , perfect , never say no , nothing's off limits , and that's a lot of the feedback that I got .
Speaker 3The objectification was very much brought up , and that's a big deal Because and again it goes back to having those conversations as you're in those relationships hey , this is what I'm looking for . I am into this , just so you know . I want to explore this . It might lead to something , it might not , but to have my partner think that perhaps she's not sufficient for me , oh man , that's heartbreaking . That's like no , no , no , no , no . But that's a matter of having those conversations a thousand percent . And and Aaron brought up a really good point to the trafficking part , that's , it's just not something that I want to be a part of .
Speaker 1Coach Bridget .
Speaker 2Well , I can relate to those feelings of not feeling that you're good enough as a woman when you have a partner that is watching porn . You know from when , the time , many , many moons ago , from when I was married . You know that was something that had come up in my marriage at the time and you know , feeling that you're not , that in some way you're inadequate as a woman , that you're not , that in some way you're inadequate as a woman , and relationships since my marriage there's been , you know , maybe a few where again the situation has come up . And you know , I know we'll get into the signs of knowing how somebody is watching too much porn .
Speaker 2Um , but it became very apparent to me and some of these scenarios and I felt like I was not giving anything positive to this person's life and I felt very unwanted , very unloved , and I made a tough call for myself . I mean , every other thing looked great but it was this . I mean every other thing looked great but it was this , and that's a lot of intimacy with an individual . And if that's not there , you know not that that's the whole basis of a relationship , but it's a large part , right , and if you're openly having conversations and I was able to have that of you know . Hey , this is what I'm into , this is what I like , and I was getting the same back , but then it wasn't happening .
Speaker 2You know , the conversation was there but it wasn't happening because there was an addiction to this false reality right Of watching porn , and it was hurtful , it was really hurtful
Men's Perspectives on Porn Addiction
Speaker 2to me .
Speaker 3I think there's this misconception a lot of times for men . Well , I'm not hurting anybody because , as Aaron said , it's behind closed doors , right . But if there's one thing that I've learned in being with my human for 27 years , women are pretty intuitive A little bit . So when you know that something's going on , number one , is it awkward to address . It Could be . And then is there a feeling of inadequacy . And what I have learned too ? So , number one , there's that am I portraying a message of you're not sufficient , you're inadequate , so on and so forth . And then , if you don't engage with me , I get the same message oh , if I looked like that , if I could do that , I'm inadequate too . Part of our intimacy , right , and like the messages that we take on because we're not effectively communicating , it's oh , man , it's a killer .
Speaker 1Yeah . So I was going to go into the next question , but I think you guys pretty much answered it , which is what is your stance on porn and why ? So I think you , kind of like , answered your perspective .
Speaker 3And Aaron , you go first .
Speaker 4Well . So yeah , get on my back up on my soapbox . I think a lot of what Mark and I's goal is to help in a small part of what we can do . You know , we're two guys with ADD microphones and internet connection , so we do our best , but the reality is we're trying to help men husbands , fathers , partners , whatever just be the best that they possibly can be in every situation .
Speaker 4And the studies that come out about pornography that deplete men's productivity in their lives is astounding . There's study after study that comes out that men that struggle with a porn addiction what we call an addiction for now , they struggle with finances , they struggle with relationships , they struggle with commitment to things , because nothing is as exciting as that . As you know they , our brain circuitry gets rewired Like we don't necessarily get the thrill of , you know , making the big sale as much or showing up for our families . It rewires so much and that's a big thing . So our stance is like how can we help , as we say , men show up better and how they want to show up , and this has obviously become a massive factor in what we see and who we talk to .
Speaker 3And I think I brought it up in one of our episodes , aaron we actually kind of went in two different directions . Erin is unequivocally opposed to it and I understand how some people can go to it . Hey , I want to try this , are you willing to go with me into this space ? And I think there's a huge difference . Like I said , if you're doing it behind closed doors because your partner is not satisfying some certain part , or you need affirmation in some certain part of your world or what have you , and you're doing that behind closed doors , that's probably not the answer . Now , if you want to go to your partner and you want to say , hey , I'm thinking about this , I want to see what that does , I want to try this out , I want to it could .
Speaker 3I know a ton of folks hey , it really , really worked for us . Fantastic , it's not something that works very well in my marriage , could it ? It could . But like I said , and Aaron alluded to it , if you're chasing something behind a closed door and you're not communicating effectively , that's where there's a breakdown and pornography becomes a very , very bad addiction , because you're getting it over here , but you're not getting it here or from your wife . So I completely understand the merit of it , for for some folks in their relationship , I can tell you it hasn't worked very well for me , um , but that's because I was seeking affirmation somewhere than , uh , than my God given talents and strengths .
Speaker 1So Okay , um , so , um , I guess my uh , uh , like I said you guys , there's no judgment here .
Speaker 2you know , I was I have to say I just love the vulnerability , I just love it like I just love two men opening up and just , ah , it's just the best . So I I just had to say that , thank you , thank you , thank you .
Speaker 4Like I said , we're two guys with microphones and internet connection that are just trying to show guys . It's not that bad , it's really not .
Speaker 3No , yeah , and we talk about it a lot on the show . We do judge that men don't always have a safe place . That's awesome . Or for me , in my case , I grew up where anger was my masculine emotion that's how I proved that I was a man is I was angry , but oftentimes that anger was masking fear or sadness or something like that . And the reality of it is .
Speaker 3I think that we're seeing a lot of mental health stuff go down , especially right now where men are like there has to be something more . There has to be something better . I'm missing something . What are the resources that I have available to me ? And you two ladies have already alluded to it , bridget , I think , when you talked about what you do for a living , professionally and empowering women in that space , I think that we see a lot of you go girl , you go queen , empowering women , blah , blah , blah . But what are guys doing ? Hey , dude , I'm a wreck . I'm an absolute wreck , and I want something different . I want something better . And so Aaron and I um pay the internet bill every single month , so we're going to keep putting it out there and see what we get .
Speaker 2Kudos . I love it . I love it .
Speaker 1Okay , so , as I was saying , I was going to say , um , obviously , um , you know you , you have your stance on on porn . Um , so , uh , as , and , and then talked about the why . Uh , let's go into my next question , which was if you cause , you're talking about addiction , and if it and , and also the , you know the sex trafficking . But if all of those things were not of a concern , would it change your perspective on it ?
Speaker 4No .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 4I mean unequivocally no for me , because I think the addiction is a byproduct of what's there , and this is kind of where Mark and I differ .
Impact of Pornography on Relationships
Speaker 4You talk about people that use whatever pornography inside their bedroom to spice it up . In my life I have only seen devastation and destruction from pornography . I have never seen any good come from it whatsoever . I mean this is an extreme case scenario . But if you're talking about somebody who's like , hey , the only way we can have a good time in the bedroom is if we get high on heroin , everybody's like , whoa , you shouldn't be doing that . Like that's again , that's an extreme case scenario . But that's my thing . Like , my judgment is if somebody says , well , the only way we can get into it is if we watch , then there's an under another , underlying problem . So for me it goes beyond the addiction , beyond the trafficking .
Speaker 4In my life , being a victim of sexual abuse , I have only seen , like I said , devastation come from . I've never seen anything good come from that and it just I don't . And again , and part of it is also my faith . My relationship with God is very important to me , so that plays into it . But even outside of that , you know , my wife has her . She was married before and there were issues with her ex-husband , so I've also seen the devastation there . So I guess when you see destruction all around it , there's no redeeming qualities for me . So I mean simply , yeah , addiction , I think , is a byproduct of it .
Speaker 3And Aaron , one thing that I would point out your story reads , dude , that there's no chance that pornography is ever , ever , for any reason , going to be appropriate . That's just how your story reads . And A I love you , B I love your story . It doesn't change for me either .
Speaker 3Like I said , at the end of the day , I do believe , especially when it comes to an addiction , you're looking for something beyond just the physical release . It doesn't like for me , you know when , when I had my affair , it was a scenario of I was looking for something else . It wasn't a physical release thing , I was looking for something else . It wasn't a physical release thing , I was looking for something else . So I'm a firm believer that even if all of those things and I tell Jen all the time I love smoking If they ever come out with one health benefit for smoking , I'm going to go back to it . Even if all of those things that you were talking to , the trafficking , goes away and it's okay , all of that you're still hiding , I do judge that you're masking something and I think that going straight to that route is going to serve you exponentially better than you know . A quick dopamine hit from consuming content .
Speaker 1Coach Bridget .
Speaker 2Well , I've been . I've been reading a lot of studies about the correlation between increased amounts of screen time with ADHD , because I am a mom who has children that have ADHD , because I am a mom who has children that have ADHD , and I will say that there is a direct correlation with the increased amount of screen time and an adverse effect in individuals that suffer from ADHD their likelihood to become addicted to whatever it is that they are seeing on the screen , in particular , things such as social media , you know , video gaming , et cetera . Right , if we were to include in the data pornography of , you know , people of a higher age group , I'm sure that it would be in there . And so I think again , if somebody is practicing mindfulness , then you are less likely to be addictive to it of any substance , of anything . However , if you are doing it and you are watching pornography and you're not practicing mindfulness and you're in a committed relationship and your partner is telling you , hey , this is how it makes me feel , and you are disregarding the other human's feelings , then that's where the problem lies , right , and I have seen , I think , good and bad come from pornography .
Speaker 2I think that in some and I say good because I've seen how it's helped people kind of get out of their shell in some way .
Speaker 2Um , I too am a survivor of a lot of sexual abuse , um , into my early adulthood and from my childhood , um , and so I will say , from the good that I have seen , it's been more of , you know , okay , getting slightly out of the comfort zone to see what lies outside of it , but also understanding that that's not the real life version of how you know a sexual encounter is in actuality right . So I think there is a really fine line , though , between watching pornography for an entertainment purpose versus the addiction , and I will say , with the work that I do , I have a lot of cases in which there's children that are being affected by sexual abuse with an unhealthy parent . And because of the knowledge that I have surrounding that , where there are images and we're in the day of the digital age and everything can be freely uploaded to the internet , I am very , very cautious and mindful , and for me , participating in something where it would be , I can have free access to porn again , not knowing the age of the participants , it causes my stomach to churn .
Speaker 1Okay , I wanted to say that .
Speaker 3I absolutely adore that . She said mindfulness as often as she did . Drop the mic . If you can bridget , is there any way to like just ?
Speaker 1you're speaking mark's language and you say mindfulness so that's , those are really good points , bridget , really good points . And it almost sounds like you're . I mean , am I to assume you're kind of in the middle , or are you leaning one side over the other ?
Speaker 2I'm not too left or too right , if that makes sense .
Speaker 2I tend to try to understand where men come from and their perspective , because I do feel that men have been conditioned most of their lives to repress emotions and not be able to express them and not be able to express them , and , being a mom of two young men , 11 and 12 years old as they may be , I encourage them to get the emotions out , feel our feelings right , and so I want to be able to understand men in a different area and allowing them to feel that they have safe space with women to communicate , and I think that there can sometimes be a disconnect and then we can have women that can be on the extreme and extreme feminist and the toxic patriarchy , and all men are toxic and all men are this right , and that's not always the case right , and I've had to overcome that hurdle myself and understand that not every single person is this way , just like not every case of somebody saying that they've watched porn has to be completely negative , but also what's the why behind it , and I think the why is important .
Speaker 4Yeah , I don't disagree with that at all . The why is the why is definitely important and that and that's . That's why we're trying to and I don't ever want to , I don't want to say protector , but I feel like you know , men have a certain responsibility to set standards as well , as well as women . But I feel like you know , when it's a 80 to 20 pornography consumption of men to women in the United States , the responsibility falls on the shoulder of the 80% .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Understanding Pornography and Addiction Perspectives
Speaker 1Okay , so a couple of things . So I want to share my perspective , please . I'm dying . I feel like this .
Speaker 2First of all , no judgment . Okay , so a couple of things . So I want to share my perspective .
Speaker 1Please , I'm dying , I feel like this . First of all , no judgment . Okay , I , you know , I'm listening to your stories . I , I , I know your stories , I listened to your two episodes and I , you know , no judgment whatsoever . Um so , coming from more of a , a psychological , you know background and even , believe it or not , I actually did marriage counseling . I was a counselor for marriages , believe it or not .
Speaker 1Addiction , you know , some say it's genetics , you know . And addiction is an interesting thing , because I'm going to tell you why Because I , honestly , I'm kind of , I'm pretty much what Bridget is saying . I don't , I don't find anything wrong with it , except for and I'll go into that the exceptions . For instance , I have had women that I've spoken to that have an addiction to purging . They have an eating disorder , they take that addiction and it goes into running . They're addicted to running . The addiction is still there . Now it's running , but nobody says that's a bad thing because , hey , she's doing healthy stuff , she's physical , she's being healthy , and it's the same thing even with , when you said , mindfulness and wellness . You have people who are addicted to some of these wellness and mindfulness .
Speaker 1Now , why is addiction a bad thing ? It's because if you look at the DSM , which is the Bible for all psychologists . It becomes a problem when it negatively impacts the quality of life . Okay , so if it negatively impacts the quality of life , your relationships , then that's not a good thing , you know . So there's that , which is why , you know , is porn addiction a thing ? Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 1I believe there's people who are addicted to a lot of things and porn is one of them . I honestly respect the influences when Bridget tells me her background story and if she was to say , lisa , there's no way in hell I'm looking at porn , I'm like girl , I'm not even going to , we never going to talk about it . Like that's just respect , because that is a place that she's experienced and I will never judge that , ever hands down . So there's that . So that's why , when I was listening to the other therapist talk about it , she says your past experiences , your childhood , does influence how you see things in life . Now , for me , I think the most important thing about porn is that it's the communication with people , like the hiding thing . I'm not into that . And you said something , erin , in the episode . Well , you just said it just now . If I need to do this every time , I'm going to be like bro . No , we're not . This is not every time . You can't do this without that , then no .
Speaker 2I'm out .
Speaker 1That's not okay , that's a problem . My God , I just saw this . We got to watch this . Let's all watch it together . Like I had a friend who was in film .
Speaker 1She was a film . She was studying film in Rochester and one of her things that she had to do is watch . We were all watching porn . Like okay , no , that was wrong , oh , the lighting was mad . I mean we were like it was in a whole different level . So I think , because of those things that I experienced , I don't find it necessarily negative , except obviously for the trafficking , the aging , the blurring of the faces . I mean that makes me sick to my damn stomach . But I do see some therapists who have used it in couple therapy to educate how a woman feels when a man does certain things , and sometimes maybe that would be the more ethical porn , not the stuff that you see in the free website . So those are those positive things to educate . I see a once in a while thing , yes , but if it becomes a oh , because you and I don't know , okay , I don't know how graphic I can get with you guys , so I don't know how graphic you're okay with me being , are you okay you ?
Speaker 1know vulnerable we are so like for instance , you know , I was with somebody , I I dated someone , somebody once that wanted to have anal sex and I said , I'm , I don't do that , I'm not going to do it , it's never going to make , it's not , that's a no . And he goes Okay , well , because you don't do that , are you okay that if I watch porn , sex with you know , anal sex on porn I'm like , okay , hold up , you're dating me , and because I don't do that , you're going to get it from the ? I said , is it that important ? Because if it's that important for you , then I'm not for you . Then don't date me , don't date me . And Bridget , and I will go deep into this with women , because , damn , if I do shit that I do not feel comfortable , or you do something that I don't feel comfortable about . So that's where I'm a little like don't you're gonna hide it ? And or you're gonna do it because , oh , you don't do that , I'm gonna look at the porn . No , that's a no .
Speaker 3Okay , um , yes , and that did happen but at least that's exactly what we were talking about earlier the message you take on . Well , then can I go do that . Well , I'm not enough just because of this it's not what he said , but immediately that what comes to mind is the message that I would take . Well , I'm not , I'm not willing to do that , so I'm not enough . There's something wrong with me that I won't do this .
Speaker 1I never said something was wrong , because I said something's wrong with you but , but like that's where those messages come from right yeah , it's like what is it ?
Speaker 4yeah , okay , and this is where I get my my stance on it , because I mean , you know , bridget you were talking about , I have a 10 year old son . You said you , you know a 12 and 10-year-old , and I don't know if you're aware of this or not , but recent surveys and studies said that 60% to 70% of 12-year-old boys actively watch pornography on their phone yes .
Speaker 4So they're learning relationship functions from that . That's what they're learning . They're learning to be dating an older woman and say , hey , will you do this ? And if you don't , okay , cool . Well , I know where I can go . Find it Like the expectations are become and that's kind of where my stance comes in , Because to me , for somebody to be like hey , will you do this , and they're like no , I'm not going to do that , I don't feel comfortable and they're like cool , I'm going to go watch it because that's the relation , that that's where I have a problem .
Speaker 4That's where I'm trying to make a difference and reprogram stuff , because I don't want my 10 year old growing up thinking that's okay .
Speaker 1Well , most people don't think that it's okay . See , that's a very extreme case and I think that in the end there is a lot of those extreme cases , but for the most part people do have a moral compass and understand relationships . And I got to say , aaron , I don't think you need to worry . You , being a vulnerable man as you are , and the way you teach your kids , they're not going to go there . And because you're a good dad , they're not going to go there . And because you're a good dad , they're not going to go there . But unfortunately , you are an outlier and there's not of that , there's not that open communication that you might have there . I mean , the fathers don't talk about like that . You know they don't have those types of conversations with their sons . I don't even know . I don't . I wonder where my brother got to know . He probably watched porn or looked at our magazines Playboy at the time .
Speaker 1Maybe your mom got him the book too , she did not give him the book , which pisses me off . So that's another episode . But it really goes down to . That's why I feel that it goes down to who you are as a person and knowing the difference , knowing that if I'm watching this movie , it's not real , it's fake , and women don't look like that , and half of it well , 99.9% it's not natural , this is not normal , and they are able to live a normal life , whatever that means , without thinking that that's how sex is . But there's a good number of people who think differ , and that's where the craziness happens and that's what I'm against . But it really comes down to the communication . And then there's another topic that I think Coach Bridget and I will have to talk on . The second part is just the societal expectations of women , and because this pornography is really of how women are depicted , and that's where I have a problem , you know .
Speaker 4Oh , 100% . And that's where the expectation for me is like , well , she said no , like she said no . Like you come home and you know I have , like I said , I have a 10 year old , a five-year-old , if my wife's at home all day with them , you know it's . It's different like you come home in a movie , it's like kids aren't there . You know it's , you're right , the x-ray life is just not what it is in a movie , and that and I think that's one of the biggest issues I have too it's like trying to like get men back into reality .
Speaker 3Because it's exactly what Lisa said , right , Aaron Like they're in a studio . Okay , go Right , this is a movie . You know what I mean . Like , I assure you no one in my home , like you've already seen the two dogs , add two kids to that , dude and adulting , super overrated . But there's no . Like that's the primary difference to , to real life , as as lisa was talking about . Like they're just saying okay , action and it goes , and so I'm led to believe , oh , that's how it's supposed to be .
Speaker 4No , there's no putting the kids to bed , locking the door , making sure everybody's asleep . There's no mood setting . In the movies it's romantic and there's mood setting and there's outfits . When you have a 10 and a 5-year-old , it's about locking the door and wrapping it up and turning on Food Network .
Speaker 1Well , you know , it's funny that we're talking about the fakeness of it , so I was trying to find the name of it , if you remember Boogie Nights with .
Speaker 1Mark Wahlberg where and I did not . You know , I'm always getting educated in that movie because I thought they were actually having orgasms during the recording . They're not . They're not . They are holding off , they are taking Viagra , they are . I mean , I can't imagine how painful it is for the woman . And you have to detach and like , wow , that's a whole , like that's not even real , like the and it's . And I think Coach Bridget and I are going to talk about this further because you know , like you said , erin , is that they see this and they think that this is . You know , this is how it is and I could . I know Coach Bridget can say the same is . No , you know this is how it is and I could . I know coach bridget can say the same thing . You know , because when they say , oh , I would love for you to do this and that , and I'm like okay , what , that's not , that can't happen , number one , and uh , where's the cameras ? Like what is going on here ?
Speaker 4well , it might be it takes right in my opinion , and again , this is like the anti-dude thing to say , right , but it takes away from the connection , the intimacy that is supposed to be there , because then it becomes about if a guy's in my , in my judgment , my opinion , if a guy is asking you to do something he's been watching on film , it becomes about the excitement and the rush of that and not about the connection with it .
Speaker 4Yeah , and , and that's where the problem , like , because then it's oh , it's not exciting enough , like being with my wife isn't exciting enough , and that's where and that's where it gets wrong and that's where the vulnerability , the communication , the intimacy like make it whatever it is , whatever event , whatever happens , makes it more special in the connection with my wife , with your partner , and that's where the huge disconnect is . It's like I'm chasing the excitement , which is the wrong . I don't know , I can't speak for women , but in my mind , if somebody's doing that to me , you'd be like cool , I'm just a plaything here for your excitement and you don't actually care about the connection .
Speaker 3And Aaron , if I could , you've actually said that was you at one time .
Speaker 4It was . I was a I've used the words I was a play thing used for somebody's enjoyment .
Speaker 3Yep .
Speaker 4So I know exactly what that feels like .
Speaker 3Hmm .
Speaker 1Aaron .
Speaker 3You alluded to something , brother , brother , that I would say , you know , it's the least dude thing to say .
Making Connection Cool Again
Speaker 4I say make connection cool again .
Speaker 3I think that's where you and I try on the show , to do our best . There's absolutely nothing wrong with that . It is being a dude and Bridget . If you're open and I'm sure that you've listened to a few of the episodes we do sashay emotions . Give that to your boys Sad , angry , scared , happy , excited and tender . Because if I would have had sad and scared as a kid oh , I'm not angry , I'm scared about this .
Speaker 1Well go ahead , Coach Bridget .
Speaker 2I'm just like , I'm girl fanning over here , I'm just loving men with their emotions and being so vulnerable and I really am , and I really am and I really , I really hope that you know other men can aspire to come from a place of vulnerability and absolutely like let's make connection cool again . That's one of the largest reasons why I , as a single mom , got off of dating apps , because there is no connection . Right , that's a whole other episode , but make connection cool again .
Speaker 1And I do think that porn takes it . Aaron's going to have the hat made .
Speaker 3He'll be stumping across the country . Make connection cool again .
Speaker 1I love it . I love it , okay . So I just want to say one more thing before , uh , before we kind of have some last thoughts , final thoughts , um , and I think , aaron , you hit it on the nail , coming from again a psychological standpoint , um , and I know you might , so might I don , might . I hope you don't see me in a different way when I say this . It's never about the sex , it's just never about the sex . There's something else going on . So if it's not porn , it's something else , but it never is about the sex . I mean , mark , you and I talked about your story and we got deep into the why , and it never is about the sex . There's always something else , and that's the . Something else is the work that's not being done . So you know , whether you want to call it , let's talk about the porn , or I'm struggling with the porn . Whatever it's going to be the gateway for the both of you to get into the source , they're going to reach the source of their real issues . So you know , whatever it is to get them there , you guys are going to do it . So I'm really happy that you're having those conversations . I do , of course .
Speaker 1I had you on here , coach Bridget , and I wanted you on here because I want women to hear a different perspective , because this is not some discussion that we often hear men , the way you both talk about porn and women and respect and vulnerability , and respect and vulnerability and I want women to know yes , this is possible , this happens , and it may happen more often than not , but I wanted to give women that perspective . So , with all of that being said , we touched a lot of things here . We went deep , we went left , right , all around , but I want to have each and every one of you have a say and have a final thought . So I'm going to start with Aaron what are some final thoughts when you think about our conversations that we had just now ? What are just some final things that you want to share , have ?
Speaker 4we had just now . What are just some final things that you want to share ? I mean , I think you kind of summed it up perfectly it's not oh , it's never really about just the sex . It's about filling a need , filling something that's missing , and that's . You know . I've experienced that in my life , you know , with the abuse and me going to turning towards pornography , not understanding why , but it was filling a void , filling a connection . That was . The connection was easy . That's the thing about it . It's an easy connection and it takes the work out of building a relationship .
Speaker 4I know you guys are all about you ladies are all about , you know , empowering women and women don't , and I love that about it . But I feel like , as a partner to a woman , I can help make my partner and my wife stronger by being vulnerable in this situation , by saying I'm not going to do this or partake in this because I want to make you stronger and you feel more valuable , and that makes her an equal partner in our life . So for me that's like man if you want a strong woman and you want somebody that can be your partner , that's going to come alongside and fight with you . You know , get your head out of this stuff and communicate and I guess my advice towards women would be like create that safe space where , if you want to know , let him have the conversation , but be okay with what he says .
Speaker 3Okay , thank you , mark . You know , coach Bridget said something a second ago . It's nice to be on here with two men who are so vulnerable , up every single day and , oh , I've got everything together , and so on and so forth . This has taken a lot of work , but I've never been happier with a version of myself than I am right now , and I think that's something Aaron started to kind of touch on it a little bit .
Speaker 3Showing up authentically and knowing that it's safe to do so with my partner , with Jen , like it's . There's nothing better . There's nothing better . I just get to show up as I am , who I am , and she sees me like that . That's . It is better than any dopamine hit that any sex scene is going to give you anywhere , I promise . So just encourage men out there , take a look .
Speaker 3What is it about me that I want to change ? What do I really want in this situation and how do I get it for myself ? Because going to your partner for affirmation is never going to get you what you want . Figuring out who you really are and what's true of you is what's going to get you there . So yeah , I just want to make it clear , bridget , I work real hard every single day After my affair . I tell people all the time how do you get over it ? How do you get over it ? Uh , I wake up every single day and I prove it all over again . It's 50 first dates only . It's proven to Jen that she's the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me . So , um , it's , it's work every day .
Speaker 1Thank you , coach Bridget . Last but not least . Last but not least .
Speaker 2Well , thank you , you know . I really have to say , mark , exactly what you said . It really resonates with me and , erin , you as well . It's all about , I think , continuously doing the work to be the best versions of ourself every single day , regardless of gender . Be the best versions of ourself every single day , regardless of gender .
Speaker 2And in order to have any kind of healthy relationship , both men and women have to do the work right .
Speaker 2We have to figure out who we are , we have to have , you know , self-love . We have to first be wholeheartedly in love with ourselves before we can , you know , can really give that love to somebody else and trust ourselves to have these really deep and vulnerable conversations with our partner , talking about sex , talking about pornography , talking about different kinks , et cetera . And I think that when we get to that place and recognizing that every single day we have to keep putting in the work , we're never going to be done working . That's when you're able to just kind of have this sense of peace in your life . And I think that , if anything , if our listeners can take that from this episode of knowing that every day it's continuous work for men and for women , and the goal is that you find a partner and that you're doing your work and understanding that . If something is bothering you in a relationship , if it's porn and how it's impacting you , whatever it might be , have a conversation about it and open up , and it's all about being vulnerable with one another .
Speaker 1Couldn't have said it better myself , Coach Bridget . That's why I love you .
Speaker 2That's why .
Speaker 1I love you , girl . Okay , well guys , thanks again . I love talking to you . I'm going to say this is not going to be the last time we talk , it just ain't .
Speaker 3It just ain't . We're excited about that . We love talking with y'all .
Speaker 4There's more Anytime , anytime .
Speaker 1I really appreciate you taking the time out to talk with myself and Coach Bridget , and we love your podcast . We love the things that you're talking about , we love the things that you're doing for men and just keep doing it . But where can we find the podcast ?
Speaker 4We're on all the platforms . So the Warrior and the Wolf , spotify , apple , all that we're on Instagram , the Warrior and the Wolf podcast and Facebook .
Speaker 1We have a Facebook page . I didn't know that .
Speaker 4Maybe we don't . We have a website . I know that .
Speaker 3We're big time , son . I don't know , I don't know what we have , you guys , need YouTube now .
Speaker 1What are you going to do on YouTube ?
Speaker 3Are you ?
Speaker 2guys on YouTube .
Speaker 4We are on YouTube .
Speaker 1You can see these handsome faces , okay , well , we will put all the links on the show notes . I am also going to put the link to the podcast episodes that you did on the sister show , both Aaron and Mark , and I'm going to put your both part one , part two of the porn subtopic , the discussion on the podcast notes , as well as the one from the sexology podcast , so people can get some more of that background educational material . So , coach , bridget , I think we're good , we out , right , we out , okay . Well , thank you everyone and until next time , bye .